news. i think an activist government is responsible for helping out america's seniors. when you think about medicare, social security, nobody says oh, that's evidence that you have got your hand out. no, that's a government program that helps to protect vulnerable people in society. >> without any proof, because it's purely speculation. you say that all the trillions of stimulus money has worked and thought economy is on the right track. okay. i mean, but, again, it's speculation. you don't know that we might not have spent a nickel and been in the same position we are now. mary katharine, you say? >> well, i think the issue is not one of big government or no government, which is -- that's how liberals often try to frame it. when, in fact, what can happen is that when you have an activist government who is doing too many things, they become corrupt. wasteful. pretty bad at helping people. it doesn't allow for innovation or new ideas frequently because the government is a pretty clumsy instrument for doing those things.